TaroBunni said () :

How do you make your headers big and yellow and beautiful like that? I'm all for HTML but I don't know what works and what doesn't in these forums.

If you put a certain number of hash/pound/# signs before text, you get different kinds of headings.

One hash sign

Two hash signs

Three hash signs was what I used in my first post

Four doesn't look different from normal

Five doesn't either

Six goes really tiny and I only ever use for pretending I'm whispering, or footnoting, or something.

And if you want the horizontal line, just write three or more few hyphens/dashes in a row.

FloRaider42 said () : Runeterra is one Planet, with only one known continent in Valeron, so retconning would be harder and create more waves, since stuff is more interconnected.

I realize this is a bit bikeshed-y of me, but while Runeterra is indeed a planet, there have been three continents mentioned so far - Valoran, Ionia, and the Southern or Shuriman Continent. The name of that third one is still a bit in flux.

WHO WOULD YOU SERVE

Reluctantly, Zaun. I'd be our old lady champion, originally from the Freljord, but she left her home for better work prospects elsewhere. Captured by a Chem Baron and forced to work in a Cultivaire specializing in northern flora.

WHAT THREE CHAMPIONS WOULD YOU HAVE CONNECTIONS TO

{{champion:245}} Ekko: He's a good kid. I've known him and his mother for years and I try to slip them a piece of fruit every now and then. Poor thing thinks I'm here of my own volition and I don't have the heart to tell him, though his mother knows. I'd go through fire to try to keep the little piece of childhood innocence intact just a little longer.

{{champion:112}} Viktor: I can't donate much, but I am a faithful follower of the Glorious Evolution, and go to the nearest church every week. I've started coughing a lot worse in the evenings, but I believe that the Evolution will save me for my devotion. Maybe if one day I can be more metal, I can be strong enough to get away from the Chem Baron and see snow again. I've never met him, of course.

{{champion:40}} F***ing Janna: What is even the point of her? What's her message to the masses, eh? Just don't fight? Wait until a better day comes? Take a BREATH? My worship is far better given to a vision of self improvement and action!

(Bonus because I couldn't decide) {{champion:41}} Gangplank: Such a shame he died. As soon as the news hit Zaun, every corner hawker was selling washer-copies of the Very True Stories of the life of the romantic Reaver King. So handsome. So mysterious. So dashing! They went into typical Zaun hot and steamy details of the women (and sometimes men) who he rocked the boats of. Such a shame he's dead.

ROLE

Support. Definitely. 100% (Though someone'll try me jungle of course).

WEAPON OF CHOICE

Either a big pair of secateurs, or a industrial sized, Zaun made, horticultural mister. Probably the latter because I'd really rather not get into melee range.

GENDER

Female.

If I were doing this closer to 'me' I'd probably be in Shurima rather than Zaun, and more of an architect than a gardener. LA sure is hot and desert like.

Complexity of that type of system is pretty high. Think a lot of us look fondly back on those times, and it's always on the table of something we'd explore again. But, taking some of the nostalgia out of the equation: I think the variety gains we got weren't high enough to justify the complexity. Think my favorite result of the system was that certain camps were undeniably the most powerful (Razorbeaks) and there was more contestation over the camp because of that.

I'm not Maple. But most of this IS FOR SURE his fault.

Understood that those types of junglers exist. For what it's worth, we are testing out Talisman with mana regen in the river as well. So those champions historically mana gated now aren't completely left out to dry when they try to go into neutral territory.

He's my product lead and sits next to me. If I hadn't convinced him, we definitely wouldn't even be putting the changes onto PBE. Sorry if we seem like we're responding with similar responses. He was trying to help me get some responses out and free me up to do some iterations on the systems.

Defending the initial changes dooen't mean we're not taking the feedback into account. Generally feel like it's an opportunity for more discourse on both sides of the coin.

Yerp, you identified a lot of the downsides.

We recently tested out an alternating spawn system for it: top first, then bot, then top, so on. Did have the advantages you mentioned. Major downsides were that it favored red side aggression to the point it'd warp the pre-game: was thought as optimal to combine an aggressive red starting jungler with pushing mid/top. Also made pathing feel a bit more formulaic as opposed to the more dynamic model we have coming to PBE.

Do like top placement better than bottom in that system, though, and could see a world we opted for that model.

I liked opting into raptors -> red -> krugs on Kayn (after defensive ward on my blue buff). It's a workable option on Evelynn as well with the Talisman changes.

Understood. Think we can focus too much on that as developers. We want to give players different experiences game to game so when pathing becomes stale or solved it's very appealing to fix it. Will say that it is one of the lesser goals of these particular changes: we don't want to you vary your path just for variety's sake.

We want to encourage it because we believe the new interactions will be more rich and ultimately fulfilling than the current jungle skill tests.

Responding to different sections in line:

Tormentula said () :

ugh I really don't like that change at all...

Sorry about that. It's a bit expected that the change is contentious and won't fit all jungle playstyles. The aim of making junglers interact with each other has been debated at great length. On the one hand, not all of the JvJ interactions feel particularly rich (you get to that below in more length). On the other, encouraging more PvP and success based on how you play around other champions seems like a big win to me. Right now that PvP primarily comes at the cost of heavily modifying the lane phase of one or a few laners. The hope here is that the JvJ interaction has some nuance and tension that is closer to the champ v. champ interactions in lane than it is to a PvE experience. And at the same time, laners get to have more meaningful match-ups against each other because the path to success of 'camp one lane' isn't always optimal.

Its going to feel super snowbally/coinflippy with that scuttle crab, meaning you can't plan ahead on what pathing you'll take because you may or may not be getting scuttle level 2. Not to mention first to get scuttle (which again, is going to depend on which camp start you coinflip to) is going to give one player a lead that the other player won't have the resources to catch up with (like another scuttle to go for..). I like to gameplan at loading screen on which lane I'd be better off assisting, and with this change its instead going to be planning around "ok if i somehow manage to get this scuttle then I can outpressure their jg... if". This also makes invading like the level 2 wolves cheese all the more toxic and uncounterable as that basically gives them a camp, your flash, and their scuttle pretty much free early levels.

Planning ahead point: We are asking you to somewhat reevaluate your plans/pathing as the game goes on. That's an intended benefit of the system that will cause some friction. Being able to plan out your first five minutes of pathing in the loading screen leads to a rather stale gameplay experience. Not trivializing your point, as it's probably the main negative point of feedback I've received throughout testing this: jungle players highly value setting up a plan for the game in advance. Then we kind of modify our formula based on our success and eventually get to a few standard game plans that work. This skill test is going to be diminished, hopefully in favor of skill tests of reactive planning and how to interact with or avoid the enemy jungler, as you see fit.

IMO you shouldn't do the random 1 scuttle on the map, that just limits playstyles and makes things was more complicated. Keep both scuttles with the change, IMO that's fine, but contesting one RNG scuttle (or even non-rng) just seems unhealthy and unfun and less skill expressive and more "what champ gets this fastest" into the slipperly slope of "nerf early junglers but wait tanks are faster clearers, w.e we'll leave them alone!"

We're probably just going to have to agree to disagree on this point. I don't find the contesting over early Scuttle less fun and skill expressive than the current jungle meta. It certainly creates some swings because there's a battle over resources. Think that's more interesting than eking out a small creep lead due to slightly more optimal pathing.

If you wanted to fix the jungle, you should've just mass nerfed a lot of junglers to be strong/weak depending on what their clear strengths are. Example: Is WW an early game champ? I don't know.. he ganks better than all early junglers, he power spikes mid game better then them, he face tanks and still chunks everybody late game.. and he has the healthiest clear in the game to the point of not needing to start pots. I think its fine if a champ for early ganking is early gankiing.. but right now it feels like a lot of champs that play for late game are monsters early game with how healthy and fast they clear, which was previously a weakness of theirs.

My original iterations looked kind of like this: I slowed down and made a lot of junglers less healthy early on. There were some benefits: laners felt less pressure. The downside was a lot of junglers returned to PvE as much as possible. So my aim shifted from dramatically slowing them down to instead reducing some of their early spike strength compared to laners and giving them outlets to interact with the other jungler. Then let them grow a lead or deficit more relevant and related to their counterpart.

On the Warwick point: he's pretty solidly an early game jungler. He's arguably been overtuned for awhile so he maintains that strength later into the game than he probably should. The constant pressure from junglers isn't really specific to just a handful of junglers, though: it's a pretty standard strategy from most.

I liked when early game junglers camped and their weakness was falling behind later but if they got ahead they could carry the early game for a team advantage... now tanks do that but better, more reliably, and faster without falling off. So basically this is an unchanged problem with these changes and overall the jungle role gets shittier to play.

The hope is that early game junglers can flex their muscles in a fashion that's not camping a lane.

..Or do the simple "delay first camp spawn" instead of this scuttle rework.. or make camps actually respawn faster so there's something else for us to do beside sit in one lane and hope taxing keeps us early game junglers from falling off a building while their tank just naturally has double our pressure and double our CS

I don't want to encourage farm-to-six junglers, which I fear faster respawn timers would do. More downtime early game for a jungler sounds pretty painful. Well, rather, can say it is since we tested versions like that. As per the tank pressure I don't have anything too meaningful to contribute. I disagree on how skewed in their favor this current system/balance is.

Oh and how will this work: {{champion:203}}

Riot Wrekz is working on some small QoL work for her. We'll be paying close attention to her and other outliers to see if they need additional assistance.

Millions of games are played on live, not internally nor on the PBE. These changes are going to introduce new decision making and new optimizations for players which we can hypothesize, but not to any degree of certainty that I'd want us to take action prematurely. When we nerfed duskblade we knew were removing a set amount of damage from core users rotations, and could compensate ahead of time. When we're looking at mages in 8.9 we're moving them in a very specific direction to match a goal. With these jungle changes it's far less clear cut, and reacting quickly via micropatch should some junglers be inadvertently buffed/nerfed as a result of these changes is a much more effective use of limited time.

We build post release plans as we get close to shipping stuff, so when we see things in the wild and actually get enough data to be relevant we can react appropriately. Trying to predict exactly which junglers will be impacted, in what way (too strong/too weak), and to what magnitude is just not going to produce reliable results.

Jungle feeling like a perpetual PvE experience also isn't super compelling to me - though feel free to disagree. "Forcing" junglers to interact with other players in the game, be it the opposing jungler or through ganking a lane, makes a game of League far more dynamic in my opinion.